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The Nabil Shaban Interview
In conversation with Eddie
Nabil Shaban is an artisan in the true sense of the word. Poet, actor, artist, director and writer, he's a driving force in the rights for actors with disabilities and acting as a whole and is outspoken, opinionated, wise, talented and generous. Taking time out from his many projects, not least of all his latest film, he and I gobbled down some grubs and gurgled away about the return of Sil, the War on Terror and someone called Steven Moffat... whoever HE is!
What made you want to be an actor? What was the journey you took to get there?
Ever since I was a young child I wanted to be actor, because I wanted to live a fantasy life, I wanted to dress up and experience other realities which were not accessible to me, try out characters and scenarios in a safe environment. For me acting is a temporary moment of madness. An actor is privileged because he or she is licenced to be deluded, to imagine and behave as someone else. I like acting because it’s a form of escapism. Also, I love telling stories, and acting is part of the story-making process. However, as I’ve got older, I’ve started to question my motives because I’ve seen that I’m very choosy about what I do, and I’ve found I don’t like all the “Luvvie” elements of the profession…the curtain calls, the applause, the attention, being treated like you are some kind of God, the hero-worship. I find all that embarrassing. I’ve realised that the extravert aspect of being an actor is quite painful. I’m not naturally gregarious, and if I have to be an exhibit myself then there has to be a good reason for it. For more than ten years now, I’m happiest if the work I’m doing is politically justified. I had an agent who said I had to decide if I was an actor or a campaigner (I had rejected yet another job which I thought presented a disabled person in a negative light). I replied I was a campaigner first and an actor second. I use acting as a means to change the world.
When I was leaving school in 1969, there were no opportunities for disabled people to become actors. Drama schools, the BBC were simply not interested if you told them you were in a wheelchair, and they made all sorts of pathetic excuses for not even offering you an interview or audition. At that time, the only person who had succeeded in making a career as an entertainer in a wheelchair was Michael Flanders, one half of the comedy singing duo known as Flanders and Swann, and he had already been an established entertainer before he acquired his disability or so I was told. So, I was basically told to get lost. However, Michael Flanders who was my role model and mentor, told me that the only way I was going to get into ShowBiz would be to create my own opportunities, write stuff which only I could perform, create a unique niche in the market. I also thought the only way would be to become a millionnaire and buy a film company or TV studio, then I could direct and act in anything I want. So for a while I toyed with become a businessman or going into advertising, become a director of TV commercials and from there into movies, and then give myself the best roles. However, by the time I got to university I rejected capitalism and veered towards radical Left-wing politics, so entering Big Business was no longer an ethical option. By then, I had been involved in disability theatre workshopping, and it was suggested to me by a former lecturer, Richard Tomlinson, that he and I establish a theatre company of disabled people, hence in 1980 Graeae was formed, which gave me a platform for strutting my stuff.
How important is Graeae to you?
Graeae is important to me today because after thirty years it has continued to provide training, and opportunities for disabled people to be professionally employed in theatre as performers, writers, directors or in stage management. Personally, as far as my career is concerned, not that important…the last time Graeae offered me a job was in 1996, and that was ten years after the last job I did with Graeae, so although I helped set up Graeae, and I worked with them during the first eighteen months, by the end of 1981 we went our separate ways, and I leapt freelance into the shark-invested waters of the Body Fascist mainstream.
You famously write, direct, act, are an artist… do you see a distinction between the different performance arts… if so what, apart from the obvious demarcations?
I’m a story-making artist, and writing, directing, acting and painting are all different methods or elements of making stories, each with their own differing levels of autonomy, control and collaboration, so they all have their pros and cons, and they all exercise different aspects of your creativity. Which medium or method for expressing your creativity also depends on how much you want to own the story, ensure it turns out as close to how you imagine it. If I have a story I want to tell, then ideally I need to be in control of as many of the stages and processes possible. So I almost have to be a megalomaniac, the minimum I have to be is the writer, the producer, the director, and possibly the lead actor or an actor in one of the crucial parts…unfortunately unless you’re a Mel Gibson or Clint Eastwood or Kevin Costner or Orson Welles, you’re unlikely to get the funding for such a privilege…or you are able to work with a tiny budget paid for, out your own pocket..then you can really tell the story as you imagine it to a bigger audience. Whether I paint, write, direct, edit or act, they all satisfy my creative urges in different ways…in the same way my five senses stimulate my brain in different ways…actually, we’ve left out music….I also enjoy creating soundscapes and music. In fact, one of my regrets is that I’m not an accomplished musician. I have music inside me, impatient to be expressed, and so one day I have to learn to play an instrument to set it free.
Did you follow Doctor Who before you were cast as Sil?
I was ten when Doctor Who began in 1963, and sadly, I missed the very first story (because the staff in the children’s home thought it would be too frightening) however, a few weeks later, when the Daleks arrived I was at a friend’s house for tea, and he was already hooked, so I got to see the programme and when I did…that was it, I became a fanatic. For the next twelve years Doctor Who was my most favourite TV programme in the Universe, nothing could knock it from the Number One spot…Star Trek? No way. Lost in Space? Forget it. Man From Uncle? Almost but within a year I grew out of that one. Monty Python? Second place. Thunderbirds? Never. Once my balls dropped, Top of the Pops quickly toppled the heroic puppets. Nope, Doctor Who had me in its grip until 1975 when I got to university, then I stopped…mainly because television was no longer the most important thing in my life. However, I still dreamed of one day being in the series. That was an ambition ever since I saw the Daleks in 1963. In fact, I would write scripts, story ideas…even wrote a letter to the BBC when Roger Delgado died, suggesting I should play the Master…and that was before I was a professional actor. Also when Peter Davison was leaving, I wrote to Nathan Turner and suggested I should be the next Doctor, but Colin got the job instead. Now you know the secret of Sil’s motivation when he is so venomous towards the Sixth Doctor.
How did you get the part?
Martin Jarvis and his wife recommended me to Ron Jones, director of “Varos” when he was still desperately searching for the right actor to play Sil. Apparently, they had seen me perform in an Arena TV documentary about Graeae in 1981.
How did you approach such a unique character?
With extreme care….No, seriously…through his laugh. When I first read the script, I instinctively knew his laugh was the key. Philip Martin the writer, had placed especial emphasis on Sil’s laugh as being the defining feature for the character. As an erstwhile Whovian, I knew all the succesful monsters, baddies, aliens had one distinctive idiosyncratic gimmick which could be mimicked in the playground, the most obvious example is the Daleks’ Nazi histrionic electronic “EXTERMINATE”. A friend’s pet snake with its flicking tongue gave me a clue as to how to create Sil’s laugh. Then, the more I practised the laugh, the more I felt Sil’s slimey essence slithering down my tongue and tunnel deep down into my being, until I became possessed by this evil InterGalacticMegalomaniacMoneyGrabbingCringingCowardlySadistBully who is in desperate need of a good loving partner…. Actually, I read someone describe Sil as the Uriah Heep of Doctor Who. I liked that, because that memorable Dickensian character was one of the screen models I had in mind when creating Sil.
Did you see a great backstory in Sil? You returned in Colin’s next season too… with devastating consequences…
I can always make up a great backstory in Sil…I have always had an overactive imagination…that’s why when I was a kid, adults would never believe anything I told them..even when I knew it was true…so if I said I saw a ghost, and I believed I had, they would say I imagined it…or once when I heard a woman scream from a inside a caravan, and then saw a man as I looked through the window holding a knife…and he saw me…it was one of the scariest moments in my life…I’ll never forget the scream…it froze my blood….when I rushed back to the adults in our caravan (it was a seaside holiday caravan site) no one would believe me…they just thought it was my overheated childish imagination…they were so used to me entertaining people with stories…but I never claimed my made-up stories were true. So, Sil provided me with plenty of inspiration for creating a history of his life. Returning to play Sil in “Mindwarp” was a wonderful opportunity, and I did it with relish, partly to get Mary Whitehouse who had apparently written letters of complaints to the BBC about my evil and sadistic portrayal. Unfortunately, the BBC listened to her, so the new script was very much toned down, and Sil was written more as a comic light-weight character. I preferred the darker Sil. I also wanted to give him my best shot because I felt I owed it to his fans. Without their support, the BBC might not have brought him back.
Sil isn’t the usual “evil” bad guy, is he? His motives are a lot more shades of grey…
No, of course, he isn’t. I don’t believe in “black and white”… “evil” is not as simple as that. Motivations that lead to acts of evil are very complex, and depend as much on circumstances and the environment, and the current morality. When a soldier (or policeman) employed by a government or monarch, kills unarmed civilians, including women and children whether in Iraq, Afghanistan or Israel or in a railway station at home, society rarely accepts that as evil, but if it’s an individual (a serial killer or mass muderer) or a militant dissident organisation (labelled “terrorists” by one side, partisans or freedom fighters by the other) who have not been given the State authority or licence to kill, then invariably the media and governments shout “Evil”. In the real world of humans “Evil” can be a relative word, especially where rulers and opposing religions are concerned…or maybe I should say what is considered criminal behaviour is relative. It’s only in fictional drama and fairy stories, legends and religious myths where good and evil is “black and white”. As an actor, I would find it boring and too easy to play a caricature or cliché “evil” bad guy, it is far more interesting to add shades of grey to the character…it makes the character more believable, and consequently more frightening…may be that’s why Thatcher’s government didn’t like Sil, and took Doctor Who off the air, they didn’t like seeing themselves portrayed on government licensed television.
You’re very vocal in your outrage of the Bush administration and the War on Terror… do you see things changing now Obama is in charge?
How can it change? Change is a word that has lost all meaning. It’s just a “Buzz-word”. Since 1997 it has become fashionable to preach “Change”. Tony Blair was supposed to have been an Agent for Change, but he showed that he was just a closet Thatcherite, and consequently, nothing has changed for the better. And when I heard Obama mouthing the same tired slogan as Blair, I thought, “Oh yeah, Obama has come from the same stable as Blair, and will turn out to be yet another puppet of the Right”. You don’t become President of America unless you’ve got the support of millionnaires, and they will be expecting a return for their investment. Ultimately he is still a servant of the Military-Industrial Capitalist Corporations, and it is not in the interest of the wealthy ruling elite to give up their American New World Order agenda. Already, we see Obama has no intention of stopping America’s war-mongering. There’s too much money to be made.
What drives you?
I’m a Natural Born Rebel, who hates injustice, hypocrisy, autocracies and inequality, and I’ve always had sympathy for the underdog. Anyway, fighting to make the world a much better place is far more interesting than being a greedy, selfish Capitalist pig.
You contacted Russell T Davies with ways of bringing Sil back to you… is he a character you find hard to leave behind?
It’s not that I find Sil hard to leave behind, it’s just that he has so much more potential, there is still much more fun to be hard with him, because he seems so complex, and has a capacity to be loved for his very evilness…He is like a Shakespearean character you can never get tired of. Sil is not quite predictable. He is capable of doing good if he thinks it will do him good…. in that sense he perfectly understands the notion of “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine”… that’s the fundamental difference between him and the Daleks, which I think makes him more interesting.
How did you find your contact with the new series production?
Negligible. They had no interest in communicating with me. They treated me as if I had never worked in Doctor Who.
And now you have a chance to resurrect Sil again in 'Mission To Magnus'… how did that come about?
A phonecall from my agent, saying Big Finish wanted to know if I would be interested in resurrecting Sil again in "Mission To Magnus". Naturally I said “Yes”. I had already been offered it back in 1985 after “Varos”, even signed a contract AND got payed because the BBC had to break the contract when the series was scuppered by the villainous Edarg. So, since I had unfinished business, I had to say Yes to a third helping of Sil, even though I am to be heard but not seen.
Can you tell us something about the story, and how Sil has evolved since he last met the Doctor?
Basically, Sil is helping to organise with the Ice Warriors, Climate Change on the planet of Magnus…a bit like what he is secretly doing on Earth at the moment with Global Warming….so that it is more environmentally friendly to aliens who prefer a touch of frost, and what he hopes to gain by turning Magnus into a frozen planet, is to corner the market in Winter-wear. He is also surrounded by lots of lovely ladies who see men as a menace, and so wipe out boys who reach puberty. Actually, doing audio is a disadvantage when the story has Sil being pampered by so many gorgeous women. I miss out on the action, and you don’t get to see Sil’s tail quivering crazily and suggestively, beating up and down, as he is being caressed. In this story, Sil shows he is quite flexible, and capable of changing his colours, depending on which way he sees the wind blowing. Sil is only interested in looking after Number One, so he will readily switch allegiences, if its in his best interests.
You say on the Big Finish Website you thought you might have difficulty bringing him to life again, especially on audio... how so?
It was a long time ago (he says with a quavering ancient voice) twenty years or more. Could I remember what Sil was like? Since then, I had played many different roles…Hamlet, Jesus Christ, Ayatollah Khomeini, Haillie Selassie, Mack the Knife and most recently Marquis de Sade…to name but a few. Mind you, Sil would have had much in common with Mack the Knife, and de Sade. To remind me of what Sil was like, I had to watch “Varos” again just before I did the Big Finish job. Also for audio I wasn’t going to wear the Sil cozzie and wear the make-up, which I assumed would be vital for me to get back into character. Maybe I should worry that it was actually quite easy for me to revive Sil without all the gubbings, because that suggests I really am Sil….cue gurgle-gurgle…Another thing, acting is not only helped by the costume and make-up etc, but also by being on the set or location, and working in physical proximity with the other actors. These all help to make the story or situation real, so you can act with conviction. Even though I’ve done a couple of radio dramas, I still was unsure if I would be succesful in reliving that obnoxious slimey Thatcherite Sluglike Toad. You rely so much more on the strength of your imagination to perform effectively on audio.
How was it working with Colin and Nicola again?
A dream come true. I love them both to bits. It was like being caught up in a time warp. I swear the TARDIS had transformed into a recording booth.
Sil is very specifically a Sixth Doctor adversary… could you see him working with other Doctors?
Sil doesn’t work with Doctor Who, he works against him…or rather that damn “DuckTurd” insists on working against Sil, who is, after all, just trying to earn a bob or two. Sil will continue to exploit and rob and try to dominate, and he will fearlessly and fiendishly take on any Doctor the BBC care to throw at him.
Would you resurrect Sil again, for more Big Finishes or perhaps the New Series?
Sil is always happy to be resurrected. If the “DuckTurd” can be rejuvenated, why not Sil? If Anthony Hopkins as Lecter can be resurrected then why not Sil (Hopkins, by the way, owes me royalty payments for Sil’s laugh…. LOL). Sil still feels he has old scores to settle with the Doctor. Actually, I think Sil should have his own series. I mean, lets face it, if that stupid garbage-can of a mutt, K9, can have it’s own series, why not Sil?
Do you still follow the series? What do you think of 'Doctor Who' nowadays?
No because I don’t watch telly anymore. But I’ll be quick to watch DW for homework purposes if I’m asked to be in the New Series.
What do you have coming up in the future?
Nothing. I’m a Hasbeen. Oh, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve just produced and directed my first feature film wot I wrote, called “Morticia”, about a little girl whose only ambition is to be a vampire. Making the movie was relatively easy, selling it, getting it distributed and seen is a much harder job. If none of the TV Channels bite, then it will probably go on Amazon.com as Video On Demand. I have plans to make a couple of Morticia sequels, and Colin Baker has kindly agreed to be in them if, of course, the price is right. Well, I’ve got loads of film ideas and scripts, so the future is Carry On Plodding.
Do you have a message for the Outpost Skaro members?
Well, in my arch-capitalist Sil mode…buy my books –
- “Dreams My Father Sold Me”, an anthology of my poetry and graphic artwork (with an introduction by Colin Baker) ISBN-13: 978-0954829407
- “The First To Go”, a theatre play about disabled people in Nazi Germany ISBN-13: 978-0954829414
- “The Ripper Code”, a contemporary crime novel about a sex-obsessed disabled guy who thinks he is Sherlock Holmes-in-a-wheelchair, and is on the trail of copycat Jack the Ripper killer of prostitutes ISBN-13: 978-0954829421
Secondly, write on masse to Steven Moffat and demand the return of Nabil Shaban as Sil…No, forget that…I don’t want to seem too pushy and desperate for work. BUT I AM DESPERATE FOR WORK, so forget that “forget that”. On third thoughts, forget that “forget that “forget that””, because Mr. Moffat would never consider my return if he thought he was being pressurized or bullied. On the other hand, the Sil in me…..um, which “forget that” are we on now?
Thanks to Nabil Shaban for his time and generosity in getting this interview together.
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